Writers of the Flash are STUPID

[Eman]

Is anyone else pissed off that DC Comics is getting rid of Wally West. This is ridiculous, I liked Wally and I don't want Barry back. He's been gone so long that alot of the younger readers didn't even read comics when he was the Flash.

[SebastianPiccione]

They are NOT getting rid of Wally.

Every generation will get to keep their Flash.

Barry will be Flash.

Wally will be Flash.

Jay will be Flash.

And somewhere/somewhen Bart will be Kid-Flash.

All is right in the universe.

[ScottWilliams]

They are NOT getting rid of Wally.

Every generation will get to keep their Flash.

Barry will be Flash.

Wally will be Flash.

Jay will be Flash.

And somewhere/somewhen Bart will be Kid-Flash.

All is right in the universe.


Ummm... I don't buy that whole Barry will be Flash, Wally will be Flash, Jay will be Flash crock. For the past twenty years or so, when people referred to "The Flash", they were talking about Wally, not Jay. If people wanted to talk about Jay, they either said, "Jay Garrick did this" or "the original Flash did that". Maybe the JSA called him Flash every now and then, but fans didn't. I think this is the same thing that's going to happen to Wally. He'll either be given a new persona or people will just start referring to him as Wally. When people talk about the Flash, they'll be talking about Barry.

[SebastianPiccione]

Puh-leez! Even When WALLY refered to the FLASH, he meant BARRY, not himself!

Until they write a story where one of Wally's trusted friends shoots him in the head and orders his body cremated on the spot, and Dan Didio says "I don't want him to be alive," then I don't wanna hear it.

:p

[ScottWilliams]

Well of course when Wally would talk about "the Flash" he meant Barry, but he usually just called him Barry or Uncle Barry. Besides, if he started referring to himself in the third person, that would be a little odd.

But everybody else was talking about Wally when they referenced "the Flash".

[SebastianPiccione]

No, I mean that Wally always thought of himself as filling (or trying to fill) The Flash/Uncle Barry's shoes.

It doesn't matter how well he did, he was still just the latest Flash, not THE Flash. And Jay, well, Jay's WAAAAAAAAY past his prime. And, technically, the Flash of Earth-2, but Crisis melded everything and all that.

Ultimately, though, it's like this. Wally is great. I love the guy. He's still not THE Flash, that;s Barry.

It's like this. I don;t care how many people do a version of "LET IT BE" nor do I care how well they do it. It's still a BEATLES song.

Wally is a cover version. A good cover version. The cover version an entire generation danced to. But the original is now being digitally remastered onto CD, and it's back at the top o' charts.

[TommyBrownell]

and now his awesome sacrifice in Crisis is, essentially, meaningless.

But hey, I checked out of Green Lantern back when Kyle Rayner stopped being THE Green Lantern and just become A Green Lantern as well.

"Rubber continuity" (everything bouncing back to one static point) is why I care less and less about mainstream superhero comics.

[SebastianPiccione]

Kyle Rayner should NEVER have gotten a ring in the first place.

And the sacrifice isn't meaningless. He died to save the multiverse. That isn't cheapened by his coming back.

That's like saying that a cop who takes a bullet for a civilian during a bank robbery is LESS of a hero because he suvives the shooting.

NO! The fact that he was willing to put himself in harms way, knowing full well he could die, is what makes him a hero.

Barry died for the multiverse. He comes back. If the Multiverse truly needed him to do it all over again he would. Why? Because he's a freakin' HERO!

That's why the argument of "it would cheapen the meanignful death" excuse never flies with me, no matter who the character.

[JohnLees]

I wasn't too keen on Barry Allen coming back either. Wally West has been The Flash as long as I've been reading comics. When I became a fan of The Flash, it was with Wally West as The Flash. Wally West is MY Flash.

Barry Allen? To me, he's always been "The Flash who died", more like a crucial figure in Wally's origin than a definitive hero in his own right. To me, bringing Barry back is almost like bringing Uncle Ben back and making him the star of the Spider-Man titles. And of course I'm disappointed one of my favourite DC heroes is being shuffled off to the wayside.

However, that said.... this is Geoff Johns we're talking about. One of the best writers in comics. He made Hal Jordan's Rebirth work. Hell, he not only made it work, he made Hal better than he's ever been, and took the Green Lantern mythos to new heights in the process. And perhaps more relevantly, it was Geoff Johns who made me a Flash fan in the first place. I think he's at least earned the benefit of the doubt from me.

So I will be approaching Flash: Rebirth like a blank slate, trying not to let any bias or agenda taint my perception of it. I will treat Barry Allen as a totally new hero, someone who has to win me over. But I'm going to at least give Barry the chance to do that, rather than outright rejecting him as The Flash on principle.

[ScottWilliams]

Boy you're just full of piss and vinegar on this subject, aren't ya Seb? :p

And "Kyle should NEVER have gotten a ring in the first place"???? Seriously? I think Kyle has shown that he's a more than capable and worthy replacement for Jordan on numerous occasions. I mean the man had the power of a god when he was Ion. Did he use it to further his own agenda? Nope, he used it to make the world a better place... and then he GAVE IT UP to bring back the Oans and essentially re-birthed the Green Lantern Corps.

To say that he never should have gotten a ring, implies he doesn't deserve it. Has Kyle Rayner ever lost it and killed his own people? No. Has Kyle Rayner ever fumbled up a mission so badly that innocents died because of something he just screwed up on? No.

Has Kyle Rayner saved countless people? Yes. Has Kyle Rayner taken the opportunity that chance gave him and used the ring to establish peace and restore order whenever possible? Yes.

He started out a little rocky at the beginning as many heroes do, but even learning on his own he never botched missions badly enough not to complete his task or was ever UNDESERVING of the ring.

[SebastianPiccione]

Boy you're just full of piss and vinegar on this subject, aren't ya Seb? :p

Has Kyle Rayner ever lost it and killed his own people?

First, I had a piss and vinegar smoothie for breakfast.

Second, don't me give me this Has Kyle ever lost it and killed the corps, shit. That was a horrible and poorly concieved story in which Hal was written totally out of character, just so the could start "fresh". However it wasn't "fresh" what we got was Kyle, who was an unlucky, reluctant hero, ala Peter Parker, who spent most of his time trying to live up to his predecessor's rep., ala Wally West when he first started.

Has Kyle become a decent character? yes. But again, only through the merits of better writing, and, I gotta tell you, Kyle only works now because the Corps is back, and he is a one of many. The idea that some new character should have been given the last GL ring, in a universe filled with depowered GLs, on a planet that already had two former GLs of it's own, is just stupid.

[JohnLees]

Though Hal Jordan is my favourite Green Lantern, I'm not going to knock the appeal of Kyle Rayner. He's the Everyman, the underdog. Furthermore, his skill as an artist makes him arguably the most technically-proficient of all ring-slingers when it comes to creating constructs.

[SebastianPiccione]

I don't know. John Stewart is a an architect. I think his are more technical, whereas I will give Kyle points for creativity.

I also think Kyle proves that Wally will be fine post REBIRTH. Kyle is not a sidekick, but accepts his "Junior" status to the more senior ring slingers. He works well on Honor Gurad with Guy, each having the effect of making the other more likeable to fans who originally only enjoyed one or the other.

[ScottWilliams]

First, I had a piss and vinegar smoothie for breakfast.

Second, don't me give me this Has Kyle ever lost it and killed the corps, shit. That was a horrible and poorly concieved story in which Hal was written totally out of character, just so the could start "fresh". However it wasn't "fresh" what we got was Kyle, who was an unlucky, reluctant hero, ala Peter Parker, who spent most of his time trying to live up to his predecessor's rep., ala Wally West when he first started.

Has Kyle become a decent character? yes. But again, only through the merits of better writing, and, I gotta tell you, Kyle only works now because the Corps is back, and he is a one of many. The idea that some new character should have been given the last GL ring, in a universe filled with depowered GLs, on a planet that already had two former GLs of it's own, is just stupid.


Ganthet apparently only had time to give the last ring to the first person he saw and hope for the best. Chance would have it that the person Ganthet saw was Kyle Rayner - a more than worthy person to wield the last Green Lantern ring. Kyle never had a "Sinestro" to teach him when he first started out. He never had the GL Corps to fall back on when times got tough and he still honored the Green Lantern legacy.

Rings, find who they think is most worthy to wield them, perhaps the ring guided Ganthet to Kyle Rayner without his knowledge, perhaps it was just dumb luck, either way, Kyle did deserve that ring and he SHOULD'VE gotten it.

I could really care less about Hal's past, I wasn't saying those things to bash Hal. I actually like the character and the way he was brought back and how he fits into the Green Lanten Corps now. All I'm saying is there are Green Lanterns who have done much worse things that still "deserve" the ring and you seem to think Kyle doesn't deserve the ring.

I had a piss and vinegar smoothie for breakfast too.

[MattGrant]

Clark Kent = Superman
Bruce Wayne = Batman
Barry Allen = The Flash

[SebastianPiccione]

Do you use the powedered mix or do you make your smoothies fresh? I add some fresh fruit. It keeps away the scurvy. :D

Anyway, you miss my point with the Kyle thing. I'm not bashing the character. I'm bashing the idea to create the character in the first place. It was unecessary and EXTREMELY cliche. The idea of replacing the original with the "untried, reluctant, new-kid" has been done to death. And the fact that they felt the only way to add a fresh new face to the GL CORPS was to turn the main hero into a raving villain, and destroy the rest of the corps was ludicrous.

Yes, Kyle works now, within the dynamic that has been created, but again, that is only because later writers had to pick up all the pieces and MAKE it work.

Kyle doesn't have any actual accomplishments. Neither does Hal. They are what their writers decide them to be. MY point is that when writers (and editors) throw 40 plus years of continuity out the window so they can try their new idea it is disrespecting the fans, the writers/creators before them, and the concept of the character.

And by continuity I don't mean they have to include every story of that character as cannon, but that if the character has acted in a certain fashion (ie, noble & heroic) for 40 years, you don't just make him turn psychotic so that you can try something new.

If you want to try something new, go try something new, and leave the established characters to those who better understand them. Some writer wants to introduce a new GL, great, they are a freaking universal corps! You can add as many as you want.


This is fun. :D

hey, Chief, can we start a flame war, next!? :D :D :D

[MattGrant]

I was upset with the way the Kyle thing was handled. It was a pretty clear attempt to update and re-introduce the character for the "Image" generation of fans. I can understand what they were doing, but at the time I thought it was BS (albeit BS at the end of a really good story).

[BrandanEdwards]

No, I mean that Wally always thought of himself as filling (or trying to fill) The Flash/Uncle Barry's shoes.

It doesn't matter how well he did, he was still just the latest Flash, not THE Flash. And Jay, well, Jay's WAAAAAAAAY past his prime. And, technically, the Flash of Earth-2, but Crisis melded everything and all that.

Ultimately, though, it's like this. Wally is great. I love the guy. He's still not THE Flash, that;s Barry.

It's like this. I don;t care how many people do a version of "LET IT BE" nor do I care how well they do it. It's still a BEATLES song.

Wally is a cover version. A good cover version. The cover version an entire generation danced to. But the original is now being digitally remastered onto CD, and it's back at the top o' charts.

That's bull and you know it. If you've been reading The Flash since Wally took over then you would know only a selective few stories actually shown Wally as an idolizing Barry Allen loving guy. The majority of his stories, were about WALLY. Were about how HE was THE Flash. He didn't look at his duty as a hero as filling a void left by Barry, he did what he wanted to do because he's that kind of person. Yes, Barry was and is very influential to Wally, but he is more than a "cover version". Go back and read the last 20 years of Flash, and you'll EASILY see the amazing things Wally has done that were boundaries over what Barry did.

People forever look at COIE as the greatest thing ever. Barry Allen saved the universe! And while this may be true, its not like Wally,Superman or Batman wouldn't have done the same if they could/had the opportunity. Wally is a completely different person than Barry Allen, who has no real personality. And I like Barry...correction: I like The Flash stories that Barry Allen stared in. You can't really define Barry Allen as a person, and while that doesn't lessen him as a hero, it certainly makes Wallace Rudolph West a shining example of character development which is something Barry Allen never had.

[Eman]

You guys are getting off the subject. Yes Kyle was a good GL in my opinnion. However Back to the flash, and by the Flash, I mean Wally West. At the end of Flash #47 the latest flash issue it ends with wally giving up the mantle and running away with his superpowered family to just have a regular life. First of all he can't have a normal life he and his family have super powers and have fun trying to control some super powered teenagers and have a normal life while doing it. He was the fastest man ever, he was way faster than Barry ever was. now are they saying that Barry is even faster than Wally?

[MattGrant]

I didn't interpret it that way. Seemed more like he was taking a break/vacation... or just not making superheroeing his full time charge.

I mean, he looked pretty on-the-job in Final Crisis, which takes place afterward. And, technically, not that far afterward as Jai and Iris were abducted for the Dark Side Club tie in (LAME) in the middle of the second to last arc. Obviously if the Barry thing (or any of the events of FC) had to have taken place after Flash #247 because it SURELY would have been mentioned...

[MattGrant]

I wonder who this is...

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/030919-Blackest-Night-Preview.html

[SebastianPiccione]

That's bull and you know it. If you've been reading The Flash since Wally took over then you would know only a selective few stories actually shown Wally as an idolizing Barry Allen loving guy. The majority of his stories, were about WALLY. Were about how HE was THE Flash. He didn't look at his duty as a hero as filling a void left by Barry, he did what he wanted to do because he's that kind of person. Yes, Barry was and is very influential to Wally, but he is more than a "cover version". Go back and read the last 20 years of Flash, and you'll EASILY see the amazing things Wally has done that were boundaries over what Barry did.

People forever look at COIE as the greatest thing ever. Barry Allen saved the universe! And while this may be true, its not like Wally,Superman or Batman wouldn't have done the same if they could/had the opportunity. Wally is a completely different person than Barry Allen, who has no real personality. And I like Barry...correction: I like The Flash stories that Barry Allen stared in. You can't really define Barry Allen as a person, and while that doesn't lessen him as a hero, it certainly makes Wallace Rudolph West a shining example of character development which is something Barry Allen never had.

THe first few years he was the Flash, he kept trying to live up to Barry, especially because his powers were on the Fritz. Even more so when he joined the JLA.
And, to tie it into the Kyle thing, when Kyle joined the JLA, they had these two at first at odds, and later as friends, because they were both trying to live up to the shoes they were filling.

I have the issues, man.

And as for personality, That was added later, as Barry's can be. Originally, Wally was even more stiff than Barry. Go read his Kid-Flash days in Teen Titans. He was a stiff, ultra-ultra conservative, mid-western kid.

Now, don't get me wrong. I LOVE Wally. He was the JLI era Flash, and we all know how I feel about JLI members! Wally is the Flash from MY Justice League.

But, Barry...well, Barry is the Flash.


And, Matt, that looks like Barry in Blackest Night #0.

[Cary]

ok first off, Kyle is a douche. he NEVER deserved the ring, he's the biggest whiner in the GLC and i'd rather see Gnort's retarded step brother have a ring than Kyle. and if you don't think the dude is a screw up ask a couple of his dead former girlfriends, or his mom for that matter. douche. plain and simple.

now then, Barry and Wally. ahem. anyway, Barry will always be the Flash. but Wally has also earned the title. which is why they'll both carry it proudly, along with Jay Garrick who is SO not past his prime. Barry is far superior to Wally in speed force use and speed powers. he just is. Wally is like a dude trying to break eggs with a hammer, while Barry is a maestro at work. having said that, Wally's faster, but he has ALWAYS idolized Barry. he's been rocking the Uncle Barry's watching over my shoulder thing since...he started running in the big red suit.

how i feel about it...i'm excited to see what they do. hopeful they don't screw it up, but not too worried because you can't give speed powers away to little losers who happen to be in the right place at the wrong time and luck out. and Kyle is still a douche.

[TommyBrownell]

I wasn't too keen on Barry Allen coming back either. Wally West has been The Flash as long as I've been reading comics. When I became a fan of The Flash, it was with Wally West as The Flash. Wally West is MY Flash.

Barry Allen? To me, he's always been "The Flash who died", more like a crucial figure in Wally's origin than a definitive hero in his own right. To me, bringing Barry back is almost like bringing Uncle Ben back and making him the star of the Spider-Man titles. And of course I'm disappointed one of my favourite DC heroes is being shuffled off to the wayside.

This nails my feelings almost EXACTLY.

[TommyBrownell]

The one thing this discussion has absolutely NAILED: The concept of legacy heroes JUST DOESN'T WORK in a shared/work-for-hire universe.

I thought it was hilarious recently, reading Dan DiDio's comments about exploring the "legacy aspect" of their characters, specifically Batman..while they are in the process of rolling back the "legacies" of their other characters.

[SebastianPiccione]

Cary, I love you, man! (Yes, even when your barbed comments are aimed at Ted and Booster)

TOmmy, I think you're right. Legacy characters are a problm in shared universes. ESPECIALLY with iconic characters. If you remove one, you're upsetting half your fan-base, but if you bring them back and remove their replacement, you upset the other half.

It's lose-lose. Or Win-win, I guess. Depends on your glass half full/half empty P.O.V.

I tend to see the glass as half full...........of a beverage I HATE! :D

I think the idea of a Legacy works in JSA, where the Legacy is primarily the kids of the older heroes, most of whom have their own Identities. They are more continuing the tradition than they are taking over the I.D.

[ScottWilliams]

If you ask people what story's they can remember about Barry Allen, for the most part all you're going to hear is... Crisis on Infinite Earth's.

People who actually read and grew up with Barry Allen are around the same age as George Perez, many of whom probably don't even read comics anymore.

The Flash "Is the fastest man alive". Cary thinks Wally's faster than Barry. Ponder that for a minute.... someone arguing that Barry is the Flash is slower than someone who is not? Now how much sense does that make?

Cary also thinks that Barry is far more effective in the use of the speed force and speed powers.

*Slaps cary with the stick of are-you-freakin'-nuts??*

Have you ever seen Barry reach through the speed force, find someone and pull them to him or vice versa? No? Oh, well Wally can do that.

[MattGrant]

I started reading Flash at #43 in Wally's series, but being an instant Flash fanatic, most of the Flash material I could get my hands on (the original Hardback Greatest Flash Stories Ever Told being my favorite) was BARRY.

Hell, I watched the Flash TV show (on around the same time, and probably why I got into Flash in the first place, admittedly-- great show, unfortunate circumstances prevented it from getting the attention it deserved), and THAT was Barry Allen (try starting a new show and explaining the whole wally thing).

So I have to argue that despite not growing up with the character's series, I did grow up with the character.

Heck, what about "The Return of Barry Allen"?

I would, though, rather buy this new story as an "out of the time stream" Barry and not a post-mortem Barry. That way you could keep his death as a legacy (although it would be weird, he'd have to know about it), but also get Barry back. I dunno. I've seen Barry jump out of the time stream numerous times in Wally's career, so him suddenly coming back to life so many years later... is a little weak.

BUt I guess I'll say nothing until i read it. Its coming no matter what I do. But there's one thing that MUST come with him. ABSOLUTE MUST:

cosmic treadmill!

[ScottWilliams]

cosmic treadmill!

Oh, you mean that archaic relic that Wally doesn't need to time travel? :p

[MattGrant]

Oh, you mean that archaic relic that Wally doesn't need to time travel? :p

No, I mean that kick ass (not to mention BRILLIANT) device that Barry INVENTED to go on some of his best adventures throughout time and dimensions that some goofball writer/editor (and when I say goofball, i mean its probably someone I really respect like Waid, Johns, Morrison, or Augustyn... possibly even Messner-Loebs) decided to write out of Wally's story because they didn't appreciate (at the time) how cool it was.

Ask any of those guys NOW if the CT is cool, and they will say YES (total speculation, i have no idea)

IF THERE IS NO COSMIC TREADMILL IN FLASH REBIRTH, I WILL BURN EVERY COPY OF THE FLASH THAT I OWN.

(and when I say "burn every copy of the flash that I own" i really mean "take a heavy sigh of dissapointment")

[Cary]

well believe me or not, but i'm not George's age and yet i own every single issue of Wally's run, and a good bit of Barry's and i'm telling you without a doubt, Wally is faster, if only slightly. but Barry more than makes up for that with his mastery of the speed powers. Barry invented the cosmic treadmill (which freakin ROCKED by the way!) but in the end he didn't need the CT to shift times or dimensions. Wally is sketchy at best with time travel. he can sometimes, he can't sometimes, seems more keyed to his wife's location in the timestream than any real intelligence on his part. Barry on the other hand, knew exactly what he was doing.

also, Barry never so much as disturbed an ion of something he ran through. Wally can't run through or even vibrate through anything without it ripping apart violently. to me, and most of the rest of the folks without blinders on, that's yet another example of greater power but far less control. so i'll counter your stick of are-you-freakin'-nuts with a nice full dose of get a grip and learn your Flash history before you mess with me! :)

and if you read my post i said they BOTH should be the Flash. Barry did his bit for the name no doubt, but Wally earned his place in the hall of fame right next to his uncle.

and no, i haven't seen Barry reach through the speed force...he's only been LIVING there for all these years. Wally's a poor visitor at best, at least in that regard.

as for my favorite Barry Allen story, i choose the death of the original Zoom as my all time favorite Barry story. i liked his death of course, because it was the best death in comics EVER, but the death of Zoom and the subsequent trial was something that had never been done before, and it still rocks.

[SebastianPiccione]

Cary also thinks that Barry is far more effective in the use of the speed force and speed powers.

*Slaps cary with the stick of are-you-freakin'-nuts??*

Have you ever seen Barry reach through the speed force, find someone and pull them to him or vice versa? No? Oh, well Wally can do that.

THat's EXACTLY what barry has done in INFINITE CRISIS and FINAL CRISIS.

Barry, for a while, WAS ONE with the speed force, as that's where he ended up after he died. I think all the speedsters end up there (at least in part) after they die, kind of like Jedis and the force.

Barry didn't need the Treadmill to travel through time by the end of his run. He was going back and forth after TRIAL OF THE FLASH.

Barry was outrunning wally through time during Final Crisis.

hell, Barry ran fast enough to outrun the entire Marvel Universe in the pages of your own beloved QUASAR. Sure, he thought his name was BURIED ALIEN, instead of Barry Allen, but he was dead at the time, and Marvel's lawyers mind wiped him for legal reasons. :D

[Eman]

Well I do have to say that I will be purchasing the Barry comics I just hope that they could have just made Wally get better and better at using his powers, you'd think that after this many years of using them he'd be able to vibrate through walls and the like without destroying them. I like Wally and I think the writers should keep him around and have him teach Barry a few things and have Barry teach Wally some things too. I'd like to see the two of them working and training together almost in competition with each other. Maybe they could race around the world like Barry and Superman did. I think they could have some really good issues with Wally but after that last comic they just made it seem like Wally was just gonna hang up his running shoes all together. I didn't like it.

[MattGrant]

I think they could have some really good issues with Wally but after that last comic they just made it seem like Wally was just gonna hang up his running shoes all together. I didn't like it.

I really wouldn't worry. Like i said, Wally was back in action in Final Crisis.