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JohnLees
Monday, June 08, 2009, 02:18 PM
Greetings clubbers! My opening post for this meeting will be shorter than usual, as more than ever, the focus is on all of you for this meeting. This is Open Forum, and you are the guys setting the reading list. I asked you to pick one comic book or graphic novel that you would give to a non-fanboy friend to best introduce them into the world of comics. I have chosen mine, and I’ll talk a little about it to get things rolling, but I’m more interested in hearing from all of you, including the folks who joined Comic Book Club early on, but have been quiet in recent weeks, or even the silent lurkers who have yet to actively participate in discussion. Knowing a bit more about your favorite comics, about the books you think best define what the medium is all about, could prove useful in shaping the topics for future weeks.

Anyway, for me, the choice was pretty simple. It is a graphic novel I have given to friends who don’t read comics, and some have liked it enough to want to read more. It was one of two graphic novels that got me back into regularly buying comics again. The second was Batman: The Long Halloween. This is retreading ground I’ve discussed elsewhere, but after watching and loving Batman Begins, I bought The Long Halloween and loved it. Before that my comic buying was highly sporadic, and I certainly wasn’t one to splash out on a graphic novel. The Long Halloween changed all that for me. But it was the graphic novel I purchased on my next visit to the comic store which had an even bigger impact on me, which still stands as my all-time favorite comic. It is the graphic novel I have chosen to discuss here on Open Forum:

Batman: The Killing Joke.

I must say, I’m rather distressed. I’ve searched for days, but I just can’t find my copy of The Killing Joke anywhere. While I’m sad that I can’t seem to remember where I’ve placed my most treasured comic, it’s telling that I don’t even need it at hand to talk about it for this column, I’ve read it that many times. So the one thing I may be missing this time round is quotes from the text – apologies in advance for that - but given the nature of this meeting, I might not need quotes anyway.

For my first reason, I'll get the personal bias part out of the way. The Joker is my all-time favourite comic book character, and The Killing Joke remains the definitive Joker story. The plot is simple enough - The Joker kidnaps Commissioner Gordon and attempts to drive him insane, in order to prove that "one bad day" is enough to drive anyone crazy, and Batman sets out to stop him - but this is interwoven with a story which may or may not be The Joker's origin, about a failed comedian who suffers his own "one bad day", and is driven into the abyss of madness. It is a fascinating character study of The Joker, as well as a compelling exploration into the relationship he has with Batman. I'm passionate about this story because I'm passionate about The Joker, and so obviously my fondness for the character will inform what I view as essential comic book reading.

I’ll tell you something I saw lately that really annoyed me. A few weeks back, IGN ran a feature on their site: The Top 100 Comic Book Villains. Their list was fair enough, that wasn’t what annoyed me. What annoyed me were the posts left in the comments section. This may sound weird, seeing that I am one, but sometimes… I really hate fanboys. We got all the expected insult-throwing obnoxiousness over Carnage not making #1 that you’d expect, but what really grinded my gears was the backlash against The Joker. Though Magneto eventually won, all through the countdown people were saying “The Joker better not win this!” I don’t know if it was blind Marvel zombies, or just people who don’t know their comics, but this one comment kept on popping up, making me want to give the people saying it a virtual happy-slap: “The Joker’s only popular because of The Dark Knight, there was nothing memorable about him before that.” Umm…what!? For 70 years now, The Joker has been the most iconic supervillain in comics. Many of the all-time greatest Batman stories involve him in some capacity. Even if The Dark Knight had never been made, The Joker would have done enough to be worthy of the title of greatest comic book villain ever. But more relevantly, even setting aside The Joker’s tenured history, The Killing Joke alone could cement The Joker’s status as one of the classic monsters of literature.

But while we’re on the subject of The Dark Knight - The Killing Joke is an ideal companion piece to the film. As we all know, The Dark Knight made a bajillion-dillion dollars at the box office, which means it was seen by a whole lot of people, its popularity extending far beyond the realm of comic book fandom. And Heath Ledger’s Oscar-winning portrayal of The Joker was arguably the most popular part of the film, meaning there are legions of filmgoers out there – many up until now not comic book readers - eager for another Joker fix. For these people, The Killing Joke is the perfect next step. The Dark Knight shares many of its themes and even some story beats with the book. Furthermore, The Killing Joke manages to simultaneously showcase The Joker at both his most tragically human and his most detestably monstrous, allowing newcomers to see that, while Heath Ledger’s brilliant portrayal showed the world that The Joker could be both nuanced and terrifying, this was not an innovation exclusive to Christopher Nolan’s film.

Another thing that makes The Killing Joke the perfect gift to someone unfamiliar with comics is its accessibility. You don’t need to know anything about the Multiverse or convoluted comic book continuity to enjoy this standalone story. Just about everyone in our culture knows about Batman and The Joker, and that eternal struggle is what the book is ultimately boiled down to. You could hand a friend a copy without having to explain anything to them – everything they need can be found within its pages. Another thing that helps with accessibility is how short it is! For someone who’s never read a comic book before, handing them a hefty tome they could beat someone to death with could prove daunting. The Killing Joke – while by no means a breezy read – is concise enough to be enjoyed in a single sitting.

Familiarity can be a real benefit when being introduced to the world of comics. Start with a more obscure title, and new readers may feel hopelessly lost. But with Batman, odds are they’ve seen the films, or the TV show, or one of the cartoons at some point, so that familiarity helps ease the transition into a different medium. But while embracing familiarity, The Killing Joke also challenges preconceptions. Even now, there are many out there who think comics are for kids. But The Killing Joke is very much an adult tale, not simply in its violence and disturbing content, but in the moral complexity presented, making this a mature, intelligent story by any standards, rather than simply being “good for a comic book”. It helps that it is written by Alan Moore, one of the great comic book “auteurs”. If you want to show a comic book novice that there are great writers in this medium every bit as skilled as those working in the field of prose, the work of Alan Moore is a good place to start.

Of course, if I want to convert someone to comic geekdom, it’s not enough for me to simply show them the writing can be on par with the writing in a good book. I need to show them what makes comics unique, how they can do things prose novels can’t, that a graphic novel isn’t just a watered down version of a “real” book, but a worthy form of entertainment in its own right. When it comes to making an impression on a comic book skeptic, the art in my chosen book is every bit as important as the writing, if not moreso. After all, they could get good writing anywhere, the point is to show them that adding pictures to the words doesn’t water the words down, but rather it adds to them.

In the case of The Killing Joke, Brian Bolland’s art adds so much to the power of the story, providing some unforgettable images. In a novel, a writer could scrawl for paragraphs about the grief, the agony the unnamed comedian (who would go on to become The Joker) feels when he is told about his wife’s death, and it would still fail to match the impact of Bolland’s single image: the comedian hunched over, hands clutching his head, as other patrons of the bar thoughtlessly laugh all around him. Similarly, The Joker saying “You’re going mad” to Commissioner Gordon packs much more punch when placed alongside this eerie image:




But in the most potent example of all for me, a writer could devote a whole chapter to the moment where the comedian succumbs to madness and becomes The Joker, and their prose would pale in comparison to this single, unforgettable image:




With this one drawing of The Joker, Brian Bolland gets to the dark heart of everything Moore has to say about the arch-villain in The Killing Joke: the pain, the terror, and of course, the madness. In truth, Brian Bolland is as much an “auteur” of The Killing Joke as Alan Moore is. And that’s my final reason why The Killing Joke is the graphic novel I’d give to a friend who has never read a comic before: more than any other comic, it demonstrates the synergy between writer and artist, shows how the two creators bring their respective crafts together into one cohesive whole, creating something greater than the sum of their parts. In short, Batman: The Killing Joke is the perfect showcase for what makes comic books great.

Okay… now it’s your turn. I want to hear from all of you guys about what comic or graphic novel you would use to introduce a friend to the medium. Think of it as a pitch – you need to sell everyone reading on your chosen book. If I haven’t read it already, I should want to read it after you’re done! I look forward to seeing what comics you guys choose to highlight.


Meeting #8
For the next meeting, you’ll notice that all the graphic novels on the reading list have something in common. They all take the familiar superheroes of Marvel or DC, and relocate them to a different time in history for the purposes of their story. I’d like you to read these books, and think about what a different historical setting changes about these characters. Perhaps more importantly, I want you to think about what remains constant, what remains recognizable even when the surroundings are drastically different. Are these characters only relevant to our modern culture, or is the superhero myth timeless?

RECOMMENDED READING:

Batman: Gotham by Gaslight
Brian Augustyn and Mike Mignola

DC: The New Frontier, Volumes 1 & 2
Darwyn Cooke

Marvel 1602
Neil Gaiman and Andy Kubert


Meeting #9
Green Lantern: No Fear
Green Lantern: The Sinestro Corps War, Volumes 1 & 2
Green Lantern: Secret Origin

jamesfairlie
Monday, June 08, 2009, 04:16 PM
wow, that's quite a question. It sounds really simple, but given the number of comics I love picking just one proved rather a mammoth task, but I after rooting through my comic cupboard for some time I found the one that I think is perfect.

Astonishing x-men: Gifted

This is not the book that got me into comics original, before it I had read quite a few comics, but all of them stand alone graphic novels, such as watchmen etc. However reading this x-men title is what opened me up to the wider world of ongoing stories, the wider world of the Marvel Universe and the even wider world of more mainstream comics.

The main reason I think gifted is such a good book can be summed up is two words "Joss Whedon". Now, the man is not infallible, I understand that he was a part of the film "water world", and his take on the Alien franchise was less than spectacular, but on the whole his writing is solid, well structured and utterly compelling. His run on astonishing x-men (not just gifted, but the three other books that follow it) in my opinion condenses all that's best about his writing into one of my favorite comic runs of all time.

Although I think that each of the astonishing x-men books is better than the last, Gifted is the one I would give to a new reader, because it is the first. Not just the first in Whedon's run, but the first of the "Astonishing" series. A new x-men team is being set up which the continuity as untangled as it can ever be in the Marvel universe. In fact, it was not clear at what point in the Marvel continuity right until the very end of Whedon's run in issue 24. The background that you do have to know is so deftly handed to you that most of the time its happening you don't even notice. Whedon's dialogue is always natural, character driven, and sparkles with his trademark wit (he's the only writer to my knowledge that successfully gave Colossus a joke).

But it's not just the writing that makes gifted stand out. John Cassady is absolutely everything a comic book artist should be. Every single panel he draws speaks to the reader is ways that words never will. His drawings are clean concise and his expressions are so fantastically nuanced that my jaw drops every time I see one. He is one of the very few comic artists that really understands not only the way the face reacts to emotion, but also the way people try and hide the emotions they are feeling. It would be possible to understand the whole story without reading any of the text in the book at all. While talking about the art it would be criminal not to mention Laura Martin, the colorist. While at first the color doesn't seem as important to telling the story as the writing or art, Martin's coloring really helps define the tome of the book, and adds a whole extra level of cool.

Having said all of that, all the witty dialog and cool drawings in the world don't make a good comic without a damn good story at the core. And with Gifted, the story of a mutant "cure", Whedon and Cassady provide absolutely that. It delivers everything you could want in a cool comic: awesome actions scenes, super heros showing of their wicked powers, evil aliens. But over and above that its actually about something - -identity.

That's pretty much it as far as why I think Astonishing x-men: Gifted is a good book to give someone who has never read a comic before, especially if that person is a Buffy fan, for us reading Whedon writing Kitty Pride (one of the original inspirations for Buffy) is a dream come true. To sum it up Gifted is a compelling story about compelling characters told with pictures, with a bit of text to back it them up - everything a comic should be.

Before I go, I just have to agree with John - the joker rocks. I especially like Grant Morrison's takes on him, both the earlier "Arkham Assylum" Joker, and his later "R.I.P" Joker.

JohnLees
Tuesday, June 09, 2009, 06:43 PM
A good choice.

It's funny, you'd think with its huge popularity, X-Men would make a great starting point for comic book readers. But often in my experience, I've found it to be one of the densest, most utterly inaccessible of any mainstream comics franchises. Got a favourite X-Man from the cartoons or films? There's a good chance he's not on the team. He could be in one of the numerous affiliated X-titles, or he could be dead, or depowered - as explained by this multi-year crossover epic yada yada yada. And even if your fave character IS on the current lineup, take a look into his history and odds are you'll find he or she has been killed, cloned, turned evil, given a new costume, sent to a parallel dimension, killed again, returned to the present from a different point in the timeline, repackaged with new name and powers, given another new costume, stripped of his powers, killed again, and resurrected, many times over. I pity the poor soul who tries to pick up any X-Men monthly comic cold off the shelf. And good luck picking up graphic novels - you'll be lucky if the status quo has remained consistent in the time between the two books. I've found X-Men continuity confusing enough to largely just stay away from the franchise altogether.

But one of the few ongoing, in-continuity runs of X-Men comics I've read and enjoyed was Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. It was just so refreshing. With Gifted, Whedon cut the crap, set aside the confusing continuity, and just started a great standalone story with a back-to-basics roster. And his talent for storytelling (and in particular, his knack for snappy dialogue) is enough to remind you that X-Men comics don't have to be like reading an encyclopedia, they can actually be FUN!

tiggerpete
Tuesday, June 09, 2009, 07:54 PM
The one I would give to people is Identity Crisis. I know that there is some backstory to explain, but I think the story handles that pretty well on its own. The reason I pick Identity Crisis, is because that was one of the first books I read when I was getting into comics. It is a complex, well written emotionally packed story with enough action to satisfy anyone short of Micheal Bay. It has action suspense, comedy, tragedy, and it boils down to the essence of heroes and why they do what the do in the way the do it. Not only all of that, but it is almost required reading for the current era of DC continuity, everything that happened in the last few years has elements that were picked up from Identity Crisis. well, maybe not the Sinestro Corp Wars, but everything centered on Earth has its origins in the events of Identity Crisis. Ignoring everything else I have said, It is just plain fun, and is a roller coaster of the mind, you have no idea where things are going until they happen. Sue's death, the revelation of Dr. Light's rape of Sue Dibney and his subsequent mind wipe, The fight between the JLA and Deathstroke, the revelation of Batman's mind wipe, (seriously, I will always remember "Namtab Pots!") the death of Tim Drake's dad and Captain Boomerang, the near death of Jean Loring, the revelation of who killed Sue Dibney and the subsequent disappearence of Ray Palmer, and Ralph Dibney coming to terms with his wife's death. I mean, it was incredibly compelling, and made me want to read more about everything. In my mind, if they ever get around to making a JLA movie, it should be based on this. May be a tad too dense for film, but it is one hell of a good read, and it got me into comics, well, it got me actively into comics.

http://casualvs.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/dr_arthur_light.jpg

wanted to get a shot of Dr. Light pulling a King Lear after realizing what was done to him

JohnLees
Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 12:04 AM
What I really liked Identity Crisis was how atypical it was. People talk about Final Crisis as really breaking the DC event formula, and sure, in a lot of ways it does. But it still has those classic Crisis tropes - a threat to all existence, Multiverse and Monitors, and continuity-shifting alterations to reality. Identity Crisis broke that template by shifting dynamics completely, making the key conflict an internal and moral one. I don't know how to put this, but to me, Identity Crisis felt like DC doing a Marvel-style event, and doing it better than Marvel usually does.

LukeHalsall
Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 08:48 PM
I've been looking forward to this week since John said it and it has been very difficult for me to choose one book. At first, I was going to go with one of my all time fav comics: Essential: 'The Amazing Spider-man Volume 2' but I believe the book that I am going to discuss I believe would attract more people to the medium at this time.

So the book that I have chosen is Batman Year One by Frank Miller. Although this is not my favourite Batman story, it is my favourite Miller story and furthermore I believe the best Bat story to introduce someone into the comics genre followed by The Long Halloween.

Year One, I believe today is more important than it possibly ever was for a book to introduce people into comics due to the recent Nolan films. Due to Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, Batman is the vogue of comic heroes in the main stream with people that do not see curling up with a comic book as the best thing possible more so than other characters such as Spiderman and Moore's triumph Watchmen. Only Iron Man comes close and I believe that is because all three of these films come from the same mould: they portray to the ignorant masses what us learned types knew from the start that comics are for adults as much as they are for children. The film, 'The Dark Knight' definitely was the trigger that broke this. Furthermore, Batman's change into the mainstream is illustrated by other shops such as Zavi and HMV selling the seminal Bat texts. Before the release of the Dark Knight these texts would only have been found in comic or book shops. But now the Dark knight has penetrated the mainstream better than any other hero has at the moment.

Now I will discuss particularly why Year One is one of the best examples that can get people into comics. After seeing films such as 'The Dark Knight' and 'Batman Begins', people will be craving to find out more about the character and consequently Year One is essential to this as the two Nolan films (especially Begins) are heavily based around the early years of Batman.

As soon as you look at Year One, I think that it possesses that distinctive Miller style that many love and suits Batman so well. the noir overtone is heavily built around this plot and Mazzucchelli does a beautiful job with the artwork. I think especially for the Batman mythos this story is so important as it really drives home the strong relationship that exists between Gordon and Batman. This is shown through the fact that the two main speakers of the book are the two characters in question.

Furthermore, I think that this book is the first to put forward the notion that most of the cops are corrupt in Gotham. Again, in my view really strengthening the bond between Gordon and Batman as they are both the only two men that they can trust.

Also, this book is so groundbreaking as key Mafia characters such as Falcone who has been integral to both the Loeb/Sale series of Long Halloween and Dark Victory as well as the Nolan films are introduced. Again, proof that this is one of the best books to start your comic book collection as it links well with what the mainstream is now seeing as Batman.

However, the key strength I believe is that this book illustrates that Batman is not invincible; he gets hurt, and hurt badly. This is the time that I like the most of Batman when he is learning his craft as being a detective.

So, all of these reasons are why I believe that Batman: Year One is the best book to get people into the comics medium

Cary
Thursday, June 11, 2009, 01:02 AM
Strangers in Paradise I Dream of you.

look, say what you will about seminal works, but if you haven't read Terry Moore's work, you really have no clue what the term even means. you can hand someone Watchmen, Batman Year One, or even Dark Knight and get a "holy cow" reaction. no problem. especially if it's a geek you're handing it to. but what makes a regular person a comic geek? SIP does that. trust me. i've handed I Dream of you to a number of people and have yet to do that without them wanting more and exploring comics further as a medium. SIP is about characters. it's about heart, and love, pain, life, living, art, music and what makes everything come together. you don't get better than SIP, and SIP doesn't get much better than I dream of you.

JohnLees
Thursday, June 11, 2009, 01:14 AM
Strangers in Paradise is a book I've long been meaning to give a try, and I was actually going to work it into an upcoming week of Comic Book Club. And now I know what volume to include in the recommended reading. Thanks, Cary!

Cary
Thursday, June 11, 2009, 01:18 AM
hope you enjoy it John! prepare yourself because it's infectious.

LukeHalsall
Thursday, June 11, 2009, 11:41 AM
Sounds good. I'll give it a look

wiegeabo
Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 04:39 AM
Ok. Finally narrowed down my choice. It might not be my best introductory TPB, but it's a good one, and I just couldn't think of any others (I don't really collect TPB's).

But first, let me briefly mention the choice I didn't pick:

The Death of Superman

It was the first one I thought when this topic was announced. I kept flashing to the end of the book when Superman sacrifices himself, even what he believes in, by killing Doomsday to save Metropolis. I mean, what new reader wouldn't be be touched by those last panels, brilliantly made into a fold out, showing Superman's death.

Then I reread the book.

It's not bad. It's one of the better Superman stories. They do a great job in showing just how powerful and unstoppable Doomsday is, and the toll the fight takes on all the heroes, especially Superman. The greatest hero of them all, and before the fight even gets to Metropolis, there's a panel where he's having trouble getting his eyes to focus through all the bruising and swelling on his face. And when his x-ray vision does finally focus, it's just in time to see Doomsday explode back into the fight, seemingly stronger than ever.

But, as good as the story is, it's not really a good introductory book. The JLA isn't recognizable to non-fans, there's a subplot dealing with the mutants dwelling under Metropolis that, again, non-fans may not understand or care about, and the story drags a bit in certain places for people who don't really understand Superman's character.


So, I started thinking of another book. And it hit me, why not go the other way? Instead of Superman's death...what about his birth. What better introduction for new readers than the introduction of Superman himself. And no, I don't mean Action Comics #1 :p

I'm talking about John Byrne's Superman: Man of Steel.

A few months after Crisis on Infinite Earths redesigned the complex, and often self-conflicting, history of the DC universe, Man of Steel came out, retelling Superman's origin, using COIE to explain his new history. John Byrne used this as a chance to not only update the Superman mythology, but also surreptitiously explain some of the questions fans had with Superman's powers and other issues (like why a pair of glasses constitutes a good disguise).

Now, granted, some of the artwork and dialog is dated. This is 1986 after all. But the story shines through. And to make it even more accessible to new readers, Byrne borrows a bit from the first Superman movie which (for good or bad) has been inextricably integrated into Superman's comic continuity.

Like all Superman origin stories, this one begins with Krypton, and how Superman escaped the fate of his people and world. It's almost a too brief, but it does the job of showing just how different Krypton is from Earth, and why kryptonite is so deadly. It also shows how Clark grew up in Smallville, and cleverly explains how Jonathan and Martha were able to pass Clark off as their own. Byrne also does a great job of showing why Clark needs a secret identity, and why Clark Kent is the person, while Superman is the mask (many try to argue the other way around).

The rest of the book deals with key events over the next few years of Superman's life. The second part introduces his new life in Metropolis, and the great lengths one famous Daily Planet reporter will go to get an interview with the city's biggest story. And we also get a hint of Superman's greatest enemy.

The third part is my personal favorite. Superman travels to Gotham to bring their vigilante to justice. But the Bat tells Superman that he's been expecting such a visit and has surrounded himself with a forcefield. And if Superman touches him, a bomb strapped to an innocent person in Gotham will explode (thank goodness for prep-time). Convincing Superman to follow him through the night as he tracks down a deadly villain, he show the reader why he eventually got the moniker of the Goddamn Batman.

The story continues with the development of Lex Luthor as Superman's arch-nemesis, the creation of the first Bizzaro, and ultimately returning home to Smallville and, in a sense, back home to Krypton.


To me, Man of Steel is one of those books that not only does a good job introducing such an iconic character (one new readers should have no problem understanding because, honestly, who doesn't know Superman?), but it holds up to repeated readings. Just going through it again, I picked up on a number of subtle things that come out after having read many issues of comics since. Little bits of characterization that you can't help but smile at when you think about them. For me, that makes for a good first (and future) read.

tiggerpete
Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 09:28 AM
nice, I may have to check that one out. already read death of superman, as well as return of superman, which, although it is long and a little convoluted, is a solid well written story with plot twists and the ending leading to the downfall of Green Lantern even as Superman makes it back.

I always thought Mongol woulds be a great addition to a Superman movie, I mean he is a megalomaniacal genius who can actually go toe to toe with superman. Think about it, "Superman: War World" you could throw in a veritable Rogues gallery of space based villains, such as Kanjar Ro, and some others, and have a story about the Last Son of Krypton duking it out with Mongol gladiator style for the fate of Earth. I would go see that.

Didn't President Clinton go to Superman's funeral? I think I remember something like that.

wiegeabo
Thursday, June 18, 2009, 04:19 AM
Yeah, the Clinton's were at Superman's funeral.

JeffHaas
Thursday, June 18, 2009, 02:53 PM
The first boks I would give a new comic book reader is Gaiman's The Sandman. That book and series comes closest to classic literature then any comic out there. BTW, it took me awhile to get the killing joke. I remember hating it on my first read, I loved it in my second. Not sure why. It is at its best when shows Batman and the Joker interacting. Although, I can't imagine Batman ever really trying to make peace with the Joker. Joker being the world's most successful serial killer. That is why I never understood why Joker appearences always have Batman at his lightest.

LukeHalsall
Thursday, June 18, 2009, 11:00 PM
The first boks I would give a new comic book reader is Gaiman's The Sandman. That book and series comes closest to classic literature then any comic out there. BTW, it took me awhile to get the killing joke. I remember hating it on my first read, I loved it in my second. Not sure why. It is at its best when shows Batman and the Joker interacting. Although, I can't imagine Batman ever really trying to make peace with the Joker. Joker being the world's most successful serial killer. That is why I never understood why Joker appearences always have Batman at his lightest.

I was a bit like that. I didnt get the hu bub over The Killing Joke to begin with. Think it definitely needs a couple of reads to see how good it is

tiggerpete
Friday, June 19, 2009, 06:18 PM
anything truly great needs time to develop an appreciation. there are some animes that I remember hating because a character I liked got killed off, but then when I went back and saw it again, I realized how good it was because for something to make you care that much, it means the writers have done their job, and have created something more than just another story.

LukeHalsall
Friday, June 19, 2009, 06:21 PM
anything truly great needs time to develop an appreciation. there are some animes that I remember hating because a character I liked got killed off, but then when I went back and saw it again, I realized how good it was because for something to make you care that much, it means the writers have done their job, and have created something more than just another story.

yea exactly. Because you often miss all the little nuances the writer and artist were trying to portray first time round. I reckon the key thing is that it had enough of a hook to make you want to come back for more

tiggerpete
Friday, June 19, 2009, 06:27 PM
precisely

JohnLees
Sunday, June 21, 2009, 11:48 PM
The Man of Steel is an interesting choice. I've not read that, though I may give it a look now.

I've got a question though, wiegeabo. Would you still recommend The Man of Steel to new readers, even if Superman's origin has subsequently been retold with Birthright, and even now we're getting another "definitive" canon take on his backstory with Superman: Secret Origin by Geoff Johns and Gary Frank later this year?

It seems like another example of comic books cannibalising themselves, rendering their own back catalogues obscelete...

wiegeabo
Monday, June 22, 2009, 06:32 AM
Not having read Birthright, I don't know.

But I am sort of tired of entire origins being rewritten. It's one thing to tweak them, or update them. But significant changes can really affect the fundamentals of a character.

Now, the rewrites in Man of Steel worked for me, although, from what I understand, Krypton was very different. But it had been decades since Superman had been updated, and the entire DC Universe had been updated as well.

Changing Superman's origins just 20 years later...well, not having read Birthright, I'm not sure what to make of it. Guess there's something else I need to add to my read list.

tiggerpete
Monday, June 22, 2009, 06:55 PM
yeah I need to read it too, I read Superman: Brainiac, and the whole bit about Kandor confused me a whole lot, had to wiki to find out why it works.

JohnLees
Monday, June 22, 2009, 09:09 PM
yeah I need to read it too, I read Superman: Brainiac, and the whole bit about Kandor confused me a whole lot, had to wiki to find out why it works.

I really enjoyed Brainiac, it was a simple, yet epic story which really captured the appeal of Superman, and gave me high hopes for the New Krypton saga. Unfortunately, that turned out to be a boring, tepid mess. :(

Anyhoo, almost finished today's meeting - just checking out the availability of my reading list for Meeting #10 - it should be getting posted soon.

wiegeabo
Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 02:30 AM
Good lord. I've still got most of New Frontier to finish. :(